Tuesday, April 12, 2011

How many of the Old Testament Stories Really Happened?

Christians pick and choose what to believe based on whether the OT stuff conforms to their prejudices.  And then there are the nutters who want to believe the Bible is "history."  Using this timeline, let's see how the OT's Greatest Hits stand up to archaeology, textual criticism, and history:

Creation StoryDisproved
Adam and EveDisproved
Flood / Noah's ArkDisproved
Sodom and GomorrahCities possibly proved
... but the people? probably fablesNo evidence
Slavery of the IsraelitesDisputed
JobDoubted by believers
The PlaguesNot true


Chatpilot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chatpilot said...

Thanks for commenting on my post regarding the plagues of Egypt. I am glad that you have been inspired. Feel free to use that article on your blog at anytime. Also, don't forget to look at some of my earlier post as well. I have managed to debunk a lot of biblical stories and to point out inconsistencies that many have missed.

LadyAtheist said...

You're welcome. I think if everyone took a closer look at the inconsistencies in the Bible there would be fewer pointless archaeological digs. (not to mention, fewer fundies)

L.Long said...

Many of the buyBull archeology studies I've seen also show very little evidence for the so called genocides that are said to happen.
It was more of an oozing into the area and slowing taking over thru marriage/trade/commerce/etc.

LadyAtheist said...

I've seen theories (can't find them atm) that the unrealistic numbers in the OT were of numerological significance and never meant to be factual. Having a second supernatural myth thrown into the mix doesn't make it "better" though!

Never Was An Arrow II said...

None of the events you cite have been disproved as you so enthusiastically believe.

Even the ex-Penecostal NOW atheist jumps to the wrong conclusion. He believes the Pharaoh's free will was removed by God. Not so. Pharaoh's heart was hardened by giving him choices. He chose wrongly. Each time. That didn't solidify his disposition, it revealed it.

There isn't a Pentecostal alive who has anything but a superficial understanding of the Bible.

You wouldn't trust calculation of Space Shuttle re-entry trajectories to an elementary school fifth grader would you?

Well, actually, maybe you would…you 're ready to place your atheistic faith anywhere~

Infidel753 said...

Notice that even the "answer" purporting to support the story of Hebrew slavery in Egypt can only do so by claiming that "the Egyptian chronology needs revision" -- actual written history needs revision to fit with mythology. Nor, of course, is there any detail on the Sphinx inscription that supposedly mentions the Hebrews.

Not only did most of the Old Testament "history" not happen, but the Old Testament itself seems to be mostly a forgery from around the 6th century BC. This book has plenty of detail and evidence.

Chatpilot said...

@Never Was An ArrowII Pharaohs free will was removed by God. Read it again bone head. God supposedly said he raised up Egypt to show his power so that the other nations would hear and fear him. Read Exodus 9:16 in context you brainwashed idiot. He was addressing the nation of Egypt in that text. And in one of several texts he was admitting to hardening Pharaohs heart. Read Exodus 7:3 I find that Pentecostals are the dumbest of the Christian branch I know, I was one.

Chatpilot said...

When the bible says that God was hardening Pharaohs heart it meant that God had arranged it so that Pharaoh would not comply. Also, which Pharaoh was the bible talking about? Conveniently the bible left that out.

B.R. said...

Cool post. And Chatpilot, I gotta say, I dig your blog; it's very informing.

Never Was An Arrow II said...

GOD DOESN'T remove free will. Otherwise, one would be left with a robot who WOULD NOT be a free person. Robots cannot be held accountable for their actions. And, as we know, everyone will be held accountable—pagan, Jew, Muslim, and Christian; even for slight infractions. It could be no other way. No excuses, then. Or now. No special people.

Lots of folk read the Scriptures—few get it right~

When I read Chatpilot's biblical exegesis, and Infidel753's assertion that most of the Old Testament's 'didn't' happen—my eyes experienced uncontrollable eye rolling. Which is still happening.

LadyAtheist said...

What is your proof that most of the OT did happen? The Bible isn't proof, btw

Chatpilot said...

Thanks B.R. you will find a lot of good stuff on my blog. @Never Was An Arrow II In the text I cited where Pharaoh could not let your gods people go even if he wanted to I was right. I am not referring to him removing everyone's free will I am stating that he did so in this one case. "But I myself (God) shall make Pharaoh stubborn and shall perform many a sign and wonder in Egypt." Exodus 7:3 (NJB)New Jerusalem Bible. So how much more clearer can it be stated? Great point LadyAtheist, the bible isn't proof of itself. It's a terrible source of history and can't be relied upon.

Never Was An Arrow II said...

God doesn't remove free will, not even in one case.

I like how Chatpilot compulsively restates his 'point' and includes this time,

"But I myself (God) shall make Pharaoh stubborn and shall perform many a sign and wonder in Egypt." Exodus 7:3 (NJB)".


I know what the text says.

You think because of this allusion, God took away Pharaoh's FREE WILL?

Is there a flip-switch deep within the human brain that God can switch on and off? Free will vs. pre-programmed robotic mode?

And I suppose the nakedness of Noah, was, te-heh, his two sons finding their father naked and they (out of propriety) walked backwards, and covered their naked father BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE TEXT SAYS, right!

Do you know what THIS TEXT is REALLY about? And why Canaan was cursed?

Well, at least you're consistent.

You're a linear thinker for sure, whether as a Pentecostal, or, as an atheist. Simplistic reading is best. You couldn't conceptualize then—you can't conceptualize now. End of your story.

Never Was An Arrow II said...

Unfortunately, the gullible mind of Lady Atheist is ready to believe anything, btw.

Yes, you'll likely suffer from paradigm-collapse trauma with this particular link, given as you are to embracing unscientific opinion, but that can't be helped:

'Course, the minimalists, and the atheists, embrace empty arguments against the historicity of the Bible because they need to…but BAR has hundreds of articles just like this one.

So sad.

HERE, a sound DEBUNKING for those Da Vinci Code fans, can be found right here: http://www.bib-arch.org/reviews/reviewdavinci.asp

Sorry to burst your bubbles, unbelievers~

Chatpilot said...

Never Was An Arrow II no bubbles have been burst here. I never said that I believed in the whole Davinci code myth and your article on minimalist is irrelevant to the discussion at hand regarding the fate of Egypt as described in the O.T. Is this supposed to be an historical event or is it allegory? That seems to be the apologists favorite strategy when biblical texts contradict historical evidence or even common sense. The text I demonstrated shows that God manipulated Pharaoh and he indeed did not have a choice. When you come up with archeological evidence supporting the Hebrew enslavement in Egypt of 400 yrs. and evidence of their so called sojourn in the desert of 40 yrs. and the drowning of Pharaoh and his entire army then we can talk. Till then keep believing your fairy tales and stop trying to pass them off as truth or history.

Chatpilot said...

Never Was An Arrow II I might get some flack for this but what the hell! When it comes to matters of religion and belief in nonsense I am very fond of quoting Adolf Hitler. This does not mean I support his other insane ideas but it seems to me like he had a good grasp of religion and the purpose it serves. Regarding the religious mind and their unwillingness to have their beliefs exposed as false by facts he said: "It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge."

Your entire belief system is based on hearsay and ancient myths. For faith facts are irrelevant and when they are shown to be false your apologist tweak the text to mean something else. They go from a literal interpretation to an allegorical for example when a text is proven to be incorrect or outright false.

LadyAtheist said...

Arrow, you are committing the error of psychological projection when you predict that I will collapse in horror at reading an article disputing other articles. In fact, I don't react as violently to new information as a typical Christian does. Most atheists don't.

But notice, I didn't post that the "House of David" didn't exist, nor that David was a fairy tale. Check my review of the Nova episode about biblical archaeology. I can accept that there may be actual historical accuracy in some of the books of the OT, and even the NT. It's the earlier stuff that's mythological -- Noah, Adam & Eve, Lot etc. Your precious article doesn't atempt to vindicate these stories.

And btw, just because there may have been a King David doesn't mean that every other thing purported to be history in the Bible is correct.

This may cause you some post-paradigm distress, but the truth is, the Bible is made from a variety of kinds of writings from a variety of kinds of sources and with a variety of causes of additions, subtractions, emendations, and errors.

Just because there may have been a real King David doesn't mean Noah was a real person.

LadyAtheist said...

p.s. The city of Atlanta did indeed burn during the Civil War (which was an actual war). Does that mean that Rhett Butler and Scarlett O'Hara were real people?

Chatpilot said...

Like I have stated many times before Lady Atheist, the bible is a mix of some historical facts with fiction. Sometimes it's mixed with traditional myths that were believed at the time and at other times history is embellished with the miraculous and nonsensical.

For some reasons believers find this hard to grasp. It's every believers kryptonite literally! They don't seem on the other hand to have a hard time in believing that a man died and rose from the dead after three days. Actually it was more like two if you do the math. And they still believe that one day he will come floating on a cloud to carry them off to never never land.

LadyAtheist said...

I think black-or-white thinking warps their perceptions. Either all of the Bible is true, or none of it. They assume we're just like them but the black side of the coin.

I don't think religion does this to them. I think people who are inclined toward this type of misperception tend toward the fundamentalist side of religion. There are Christians with a more nuanced view of the Bible.

Anonymous said...

If they pick and choose the Word of God then they are not christians but are liars. The archaeological digs you speak of are constantly proving that the Word of God is true, not the opposite. Just a few short years ago most archeologist, and for sure all most all atheist pointed to the fact that Jericho did not exist as cold, hard proof the Bible lied! Guess what they found Jericho. As far as inconsistencies lol. If you from your background and perspective and I from mine saw an accident. Would we tell the officer about the same accident? Yes, only from the perspective and background we had . One Gospel says Christ was coming down the mountain one he was going up. Yet if you study the land where the Sermon on the Mount was given you will find both are right. Just different perspectives. The so called inconsistencies are only the ramblings of one whose agenda is to take as many to hell with them as they can! Satan has always been a father of lies, and of liars! He will take you and everyone he can down with him. I pray that you will find the truth before you die. You do not know when you will die no one does. But it is sooner than most want. With love JD.
P.S. I am not anonymous my name is JD

LadyAtheist said...

All Christians pick and choose which "words" of God to believe, from the beginning of Christianity. Which version of the Flood story is true? How many days? Which version of Jesus' lineage in the Gospels is true? Which version of the tomb story is correct?

How can one accept 100% of the Bible as true if the Bible contradicts itself?

Not to mention, just because there's a city that may have been Jericho doesn't mean a supernatural entity had a role in its destruction. That's like saying that Gone With the Wind must be true because Atlanta really did burn, or that Spiderman is true because there really is a New York City.

Chatpilot said...

@JD I disagree with your assessment regarding biblical inconsistencies, the bible has many. In many cases it's is not a case of perspective views. Case in point if you were to take the time to read the synoptic gospels telling of the resurrection of Christ you would see glaring inconsistencies.In fact, they are so obvious that it is an insult to anyone's intelligence. The crucifixion story suffers from the same type of inconsistencies as well. Ladyatheist, I have always stated that believers idea of archeology or science is ass backward. As you stated they start from a position of belief and then try to make the data or discoveries to agree with the beliefs. This is the scientific method in reverse, and is in fact unscientific. JD you did as many believers do, you tried to make an argument based on fear. Your threats of hell are empty and in my eyes at least make God a cruel and evil monster. Going to hell for using your analytical mind and questioning doctrines and beliefs based on nonsense and superstition is outright cruel. I have no fear of hell or death because like your God neither of them exist.

Jeremy Tate said...

You must access this world with truth. You must be as a child meaning "pre programming". That's part of what entering heaven as a child means. You have to be honest with yourself about this world. You're told right off the bat "you're on earth". How do you know? Why? Because other humans tell you that. They've told you "thats" where you. "This is life". "The food chain is normal, biology says so". How do you know that? You're trusting everything you've been told. If your instinct which is valid tells you "that doesnt make sense", you're right. That's what building your house on a rock means. You must know thy self.